[Shiroi Tora]

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IF..and ONLY IF, you are wrong...you owe more than the utterances of apology. You have drawn first blood. You must expect them to be angry..of course, in appropriate relation to the offense. You allow that. You correct the offense...and, this is important...you pay back..with interest.

Do not apologize if you KNOW you are right (be assertive...fight the good fight...the honorable one). If someone tries to make you apologize for something they had done, they are seeking dominance and should you cave in...the short term effect may be one of "peace"...but the long term effect is one of no self respect and thereafter, getting no respect from them. It will increase to no end. If you know you are right...and can show the other person objectively and convincingly...that they are wrong...THEY are being stubborn...they will seek to impose their will upon you...knowing you will cave. You will have sold your soul to the devil...and shall live your life in hell so long as they are in your life.

Apologize correctly and you have the right to expect it in return. With this, and only with this...progress can be made.


Thoughts on this?

[Krazie243]

It is a lonely lonely life being the good man... lol

To better explain my resonse: If you are assertive and do not back down when you are right (assuming you already know) then you will make few friends. I know from experience =(

[Shiroi Tora]

Ah...I do know what you mean. However, I consider it a sieve in life. Those that do not believe in what is right....I do not wish to have around me in the first place. The quality of a good friendship far outweighs the quantity of untested "friends". Your self respect must be foremost if you are to be worthy of friendship in the first place.

[Krazie243]

Very true =) I guess that is the subconscious reason I live the way I do =)

[Calvert]

What if you apologize and the person chooses not to forgive you? Then what?

[Shiroi Tora]

You will then have earned the right to move on.

[krisi]

Sometimes, neither person is right. It's no so black and white as "you have drawn first blood". Sometimes in combat (going with that "drawing first blood" analogy) and in real life, two people draw blood at the exact same moment. Or one person put the other in a situation (possibly unknowingly) where "blood would be drawn", but did not actively draw the blood.

Sometimes, the offender does not think that they have done anything wrong. I was in a situation like this:

Last year, I was working 20-30 hours a week while also being a full time student, taking both undergraduate and graduate classes. I only had so much time, and I need to be able to sleep in my apartment. My roommate was taking the minimal required amount of classes, and her parents were paying for everything, so she had plenty of extra time on her hands. She would sometimes invite several people over to our apartment late at night, and they would become very loud, often shouting at the television. I would make it clear that I was going to bed (come out in my PJ's, say goodnight if the guests were also acquaintances of mine, yawn, say I was feeling tired or sick, etc.), then go lay down, wait about 15 minutes to see if they quieted down--and they never did. After that time, I would go out and politely request that they be quieter. I would go back into my room for 15 minutes once again, come out, and tell my roommate directly "They need to leave." In the beginning this worked, and I"m not going to go on about the resulting situation (or this could become a VERY long post). The immediate result was that I thought that she had been rude and inconsiderate by creating the situation and allowing it to perpetuate (I hold that one needs to take responsibility for their guests), and she thought that I had been rude and considerate by "demanding" their compliance and then kicking them out. In my mind, I held that I had the right to sleep in my own apartment, and that basic needs came before socialization (because this socialization could have taken place anywhere: at a bar, at another of their apartments, etc but I had one bed to sleep in and it was in that apartment). In my roommates mind, she could do whatever she wanted in her apartment, and nobody could tell her what to do because she was an adult.

Of course neither of us offered an apology, nor were we willing to give an apology, because we both held that we were "in the right." The situation never got resolved, and we both graduated and moved out.

What would you recommend in situations like that, to avoid the result of nothing ever being resolved because nobody could ever come to an agreement.

[Shiroi Tora]

It is quite obvious she was in the wrong...completely. It was not her apt. as you shared rent. It is good she is out of your life. In future situations...a straight right usually takes care of the matter quite handily...

If ever a situation arises...I can't think of any....where both are wrong...at the same time...why wouldn't the original rule still apply? Both would have to make amends regardless.

When a situation comes about when there can be no agreement...it is because one or both cannot be proven to have been wrong (or refuses to acknowledge it). It depends on the potential loss....some things are worth fighting to the death over. Other times...to cut all future contact from them is the best.

A general rule: Don't sacrifice long term for the short.

That makes any future questions self answering...you must look at your long term goals...and balance it to the event.

[142857]

Standing your ground and not apologizing if you believe strongly that you are right.... not such a good idea in marriage. Especially if you want to stay married.

Fact is that, in marriage, you can always find something to apologize for, even if you know you were in the right. You can apologize for a harsh word or for not listening or for not being nice about it.

My kids and their happiness matter far more to me than who is right or wrong when my wife and I have a disagreement.

[Shiroi Tora]

Shouldn't she feel the same way? That would put both of you on even ground. The one who is wrong needs to apologize, and make amends. You need not carry a grudge...but you need not apologize for something you had not done....every time you do...respect is lost...in your children's eyes...in her eyes...and in your own. You may simply carry on and let it roll off your back. Your children need a father who will stand up to that which is wrong...or for at least that for which is right. You can do this and keep your children happy...and in the long run...your wife happy too. That takes fortitude and imagination on your part.

I am sorry...you cannot tell me that you must beg in a marriage to keep it together...you are merely being dominated if you are at that point. I don't believe you are...otherwise I wouldn't have brought it up here.

Just a note to all young men destined to be fathers...you must be a man before you wish to be a husband and/or father.

[Krazie243]

I am with Shiroi Tora 100% on this one. 142857, what is your name? It is so weird referring to someone by a number....

The reason that marriage is so screwed up is because everyone is someone else's b***h. We need a society of competent people that think logically. I would not want to be in a marriage with a twat who thinks that I should apologize when she is wrong. Additionally, I would deserve to kill myself if I was so pathetic that I thought I needed to apologize when I'm right.

Now, to move on to something slightly between the lines: If I am right, but I am harsh and brutal in my delivery it is still totally possible for me to be apologetic for my delivery. But to apologize when you are right is just pathetic. You need to remember to separate those two things entirely. Delivery and point. There are things you can say, and there are ways you can say it. If you say something respectful and correct, no apology is required.

[shinigami]

Both of you are intimidating to me, in a good way and not as an insult. You are both very intelligent. Reading all of your posts prevents me from saying anything because I know I'm not up there with either of you and I will definitely seem like the fool that I am.
I just wanted to say that when I was a little girl, I would apologize profusely over everything I did. Oftentimes, there was absolutely no reason to apologize and people would be confused as to why I was apologizing. Looking back, I realize that I was mimicking people and often did it because I thought it was what I was supposed to do. I also did this with "thank you" which is funny to look back on. I am glad that I grew out of that towards the end of high school because it is also hard to keep friends when you have strange behavior like that. Over time, I have learned when it is appropriate to apologize or say thank you, however, I understand that sometimes I refuse to apologize for certain things that I do not believe are mean. My husband has issues with me talking to his friends because I tend to insult them unintentionally. I correct people, I say odd things, and I do not use my "filters" so I say exactly what I think. These type of behaviors I do not apologize for and this tends to make both my husband and his friends frustrated. Perhaps I need to be more empathetic.

[142857]

Shiroi Tora, who is right and who is wrong is very rarely black and white. I have at times allowed my wife to not speak to me for as many days as it takes for her to calm down, and then quietly and calmly sat her down and explained to her why she is wrong. This can be a good approach, but if used too often it simply creates resentment. The knack is knowing when to use it.

In any relationship, with any disagreement, there are always things that you could have done better. And it is always possible to apologize for those. You do not need to apologize for something that you have not done, but you can calm the waters by apologizing for the way in which you approached a disagreement. One must choose one's battles carefully in marriage.

Shiroi Tora, your posts on this forum and the other indicate that you are an extremely idealistic person, one of the most idealistic people I have ever come across either online or in real life. Which is a great thing, without idealists the world would be a pretty horrible place. My guess is that you are very young. Idealism almost always becomes tempered by reality, by life experience, by time. Being older doesn't make you smarter, just less idealistic and hopefully less convinced of the totality of your knowledge.

I also see that you are not an aspie. Do you feel that you have something to offer aspies, or do you simply enjoy engaging in debate with aspies?

I could go on about the situations outside of marriage where an apology should be expected and the situations where it is best to let things slide. Perhaps I will later.

Don't worry, I do plan to take you to task on some of your other idealistic posts and propositions.

[Calvert]

Shiroi Tora, on 23 July 2010 - 03:59 PM, said:

You will then have earned the right to move on.

What if you can't? What if you want things to go back to the way they were? That's what I wanted, now I feel I have no choice but to move on.


@142857 He is older than you think and has a son on the spectrum.

[Shiroi Tora]

First...I invite everyone to take all messages they feel are incorrect (in life also) to task...that is the sacred duty of all critically thinking persons.

Second....That is why I am posting here in the Friends and Relatives section....My son is a 2E Child (Asperger's / Profoundly Gifted). I post that which I have lived and which has worked so very well for my son. Please read my blog (under my signature)...in it you will find much more information about the therapy, philosophy and methods that have worked so well.

Third....I am 50 yrs. old. I have had a great many experiences in life. I've learned a great many things about myself and others first hand in the Army / University / Teaching in Japan / As a
Correctional Officer 22+ yrs... I speak from life experience. I retire in less than 1 yr. with a high percentage of my rather high salary for the rest of my life....because I have lived my philosophy...not just read about it and parroting what I have heard. I have planned out my life and the care of my family.

What I speak of has great relevance for all...not because I speak it...but because it is reasonable.

[Shiroi Tora]

Posted from Calvert:

What if you can't? What if you want things to go back to the way they were? That's what I wanted, now I feel I have no choice but to move on.

Reply:

You can not be accountable for the reactions of others. You must do what is right in life. I agree one must pick the battles in life....you don't sacrifice the long term for the short. I give others time to think and change. I let some things simply roll off my back...and continue that which I know is correct. The others who were wrong often don't say anything out of embarrassment but change subtlety. I certainly do not mean to fight every little slight. However, I do not apologize for a right. I do agree that if your delivery was over zealous that you should apologize for that.
Just not for correct content...or for the incorrectly perceived offense on their part.

A relationship that must be begged for to keep is simply not worth keeping. Have the confidence to move on...that will open other opportunities to find others.

[142857]

Shiroi Tora, congrats on hanging on to your idealism. You are a rare creature indeed.

I think that you will agree that, just like autism is a spectrum, many things in life are a spectrum.

Idealism is a spectrum. Taking the light spectrum as a metaphor, if violet = idealism, then you are ultra violet.

I find your posts intelligent, rational, very enjoyable to read, and way more idealistic than I ever was or ever will be. I have made a reply to your thread on assertiveness on another forum, looking forward to your comments.

[Shiroi Tora]

I thank you...however, it is not Idealism that I speak about. It is a realistic way of life...one that I have lived and have seen others live. I love life and I love to see others live and love life.

I have seen others allow people, situations, and, themselves get in the way of happiness (not unjustified happiness...earned happiness). That, I hate to see because I know that it just takes walking a simple path...now, correctly following it is difficult...to find the path itself is easy as it is right before us. I am simply pointing to the path that leads upwards. For those who don't wish to follow out of fear...I try to change their perspective....for those who don't out of depression...I try to motivate....for those out of laziness...I try to point out the end game so they may one day wish to better themselves.

Again...it is only Idealism until you make it a reality. Life is what you make of it....it takes on the meaning you give it.

I do admit, I have never suffered from depression. I cannot really think of a time in which I was really even situationally depressed. I may have felt a little down for a bit...but then it is an adventure trying to find a better way to change the situation or to change my direction in life. Without those potholes in life...it simply wouldn't be quite the memorable journey. Obstacles lead to growth as you challenge them.

I have been fortunate in life...I was raised in middle class USA. Although I have had many adventures...I was never at true risk...not like so many in countries that to survive is in itself an ordeal. I feel for them...the ones who come out of those circumstances and excel have proven themselves to be far better than I.

But for the rest of us...in industrialized nations...our problems are readily solvable by our own efforts...it is in this spirit, that I post.

[142857]

I just thought that I would add the most important thing about how to make an apology.

And that thing is... knowing the wrong way to make an apology, and not falling into that trap.

You see, too many people hate to apologize, and if they find themselves in a position where an apology is necessary.... they try to make the apology in such a way that it is clear that they actually feel they have done nothing wrong.

A partial apology is a waste of time. Don't bother with "I'm sorry about A, but it wasn't really my fault". Or "I'm sorry about B, but I can't see what the problem is, everyone does it". You might as well keep your mouth shut.

A qualified apology is much worse than no apology at all. By that I mean "I'm sorry that I did X, but I did it for your own good", or "I'm sorry that I did Y, but you deserved it".

An apology should be sincere and unreserved. Only then is it worth uttering.

[142857]

Krazie243, on 23 July 2010 - 07:39 PM, said:

142857, what is your name? It is so weird referring to someone by a number....

http://aspergic.com/...-username-mean/

Have a look in there (no offence intended). I now know that I am afflicted with hypercalculia, at the time I made the post I didn't even know what that was.

I feel weird having a number for a name, but I was encouraged to keep it by replies in that thread so it kind of stuck. Open to suggestions for a new name.